Vendetta: Rise of a Gangster - Resumed
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@13ventrm wrote: "May I ask if we'll be able to significantly improve our character's stats in the game, and if so, in what form? The small bonus to the coglioni stat when I dared to try the still whiskey amused me, certainly a much more subtle way of stat improvement. I think these subtle but constant stat changes help the immersion and realism, like the small benevolence increase after saving Carina, or the small notoriety increase after the truck job."
Rescued the above from the old thread as it touches upon a very important aspect of the game and seems a good starting point for a new thread, especially as the next significant update is at least a week away!
For the most part the main story will have only subtle or relatively minor stats changes (there will be exceptions in extreme circumstances) as the full game will not be short--at least 150,000 words, or the length of a fairly typical novel--and the gradual changes to your character over time have to reflect that rather than leap to excellence in all things. The overall idea is that this should also (hopefully) better reflect your choice tendencies over time, so your character develops in realistic fashion.
That said, the big thing I'm working on atm is a "Weekly Accounting & Events" thing, which kicks in at the end of Chapter One (the end of your first week in the story). Chapters 2+ will each cover several (4-6) "weeks" of the story. You will periodically be briefly taken out of the story, at the end of each "week", in order to collect income from your ongoing businesses & racket operations and be able to spend that cash on any of a variety of things, if you so choose. Or you can keep hold of it for future investment in more businesses & rackets, or a combination of the two. A few choices later, you'll find yourself back in the story from precisely where you left it, ready to start the new "week".
The "Events" part of the weekly interlude is the complicated (for me!) bit. It's already over a thousand lines of code and climbing. This essentially lets you choose, from a wide variety of options (currently 24, more to come) governing what you will do in your "spare time" over the following week (i.e. not specifically, necessarily covered in the story itself). Some of these options will directly affect the main story, some will give unique (and sometimes, temporary) opportunities and lead to new sub plots not available by any other means, some will affect your income over the following week, and some will influence your Attributes--e.g. you can spend your "spare time" over the next week specifically aiming to improve such as your Firearms skill, if you so choose. These "weekly" stats changes will be more noticeable, for the most part, especially compared to the subtle ones reflecting your actions in the main story.
Most of the benefits from these "weekly" options are not fully implemented / realized until the end of the next week / start of the following week, of course, at which point you can choose a different option for the forthcoming week, or stick with the same one if you prefer to pursue excellence in one particular way (and if it's still available to you!).
Finally, it's worth mentioning that of all the many "Weekly" options, only a bare handful are not conditional and will always be available. The majority are specific to your background, your stats, your current circumstances, or your "history" in the game to date. You will typically have perhaps 8-10 to choose from on most weeks, but both the number and type of options will definitely vary from one week to the next.
I'm hoping to have a playable version of "Chapter Two" (probably including about 4 "weeks" in that one) available in the next 7-10 days, all being well. Feedback on this whole concept would be very much appreciated, especially as it's heading in a completely different direction to the way most existing ChoiceScript games are designed.
In the meanwhile, if you haven't tried Chapter One yet . . .
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/82562041/web/vendetta1/index.html -
Hi I really want to play this game bit your link won't load ony I-phone is there after link 4 I-phone ?
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@Stpeter182 , If you try the game on an iPhone, because the hosting site is webs.com, it is automatically set up for a mobile and gives problems.
To get it to work on your phone, click the link as normal, then on the page where it doesn't load, go to the bottom and there should be a "classic view" button (or something similar). Click that, and it should work fine :)
Ps: Glad to see yo back @Vendetta ! -
No words describe how excited I am about the fact that the game is being continued @Vendetta!
And I am not sure if you went to your other forum page after it all went out of hand, but I made another suggestion (suddenly I feel like a gigantic nitpicker), if you choose to be a war veteran the game says in the intro that you sometimes have nightmares that make you wake up screaming. Perhaps you can have an episode like this while sleeping next to your love interest? :) -
@andymwhy Thanks, it's good to be back. The break did me good anyway, as I've got a fair chunk done today.
@Bikkje Hehe. Suggestions made to add depth and variety to the story is never "nitpicking" in my view--especially where it follows on from a specific background as I will eventually need quite a few of those for each one. I like this one, thanks. :) -
Glad to have you back, we all need a break now and then.
A system in which stat increases are gradual and realistic rather than just making a choice and then being good at something? Capital! The unique events depending on your background and what you choose to do in your freetime seem like they'll add a lot of replayability.
Perhaps they can also allow for some character development, both for the protagonist and the side characters, something along the lines of recieving aiming lessons from Mangano if you're in his good graces, or Dino introducing you to some street contacts he's familiar with if you're amicable with him. But you have enough on your plate as it is, and I haven't the foggiest how much harder that would make the already tricky sounding programming. -
Really excellent work so far, it puts my own attempts to shame (but is providing me with plenty of inspiration to make improvements). It seems like there are some really interesting choices to make, and the initial plot is intriguing.
If I can make one observation - early on, when you think you are being followed, I did find it jarring that your character doesn't make the connection between his sister and the kitten club and the person following him. Other than that though, really enjoyable and I hope to see more from you soon! -
Can't wait to play the next parts
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Yes! @Vendetta thank you for deciding to take this back up! This honestly has made my night!
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Thanks everyone, I'm happy to be back. :)
@13ventrm My hope is that the "only-gradual" stats changes for a while also heighten the importance of your choice of starting background / initial stats, and thereby perhaps also serve to better define each one. As always, replayability is the most important overall design criteria. To my way of looking at it, so much time and effort is invested in one of these things that it would be a crying shame if a typical player did not immediately feel the urge to "try again" (and again, and . . .) purely for lack of sufficient variety; of different things to try or different ways to develop your character each time. That, to me, is the Holy Grail of multiple choice game design . . . but, I admit, it's a tall order!
I like your ideas as they are very pertinent to those particular characters, and especially because it would help to build character relationships in more "everyday" scenes rather than always as accomplices "on a job". Any suggestions along these lines are particularly welcome.
@bawpie I'm really, really pleased that you find it inspirational. I played just about all the available games before even sitting down to write my own, and I still often check up on what others are doing just to help fuel my own creativity. I find myself trying to emulate the atmospheric depth of such as Vampire and the terrific plot pacing of the likes of Zombie Exodus, while at the same time aiming to develop a unique style of my own and trying to come up with some new ideas to broaden the scope of what can be achieved with ChoiceScript. It's a continual learning experience in more ways than one. :D
Your point about the Kitten Club mention is well taken. One of the earliest scenes I wrote, I had it in mind that your character was pretending he had never heard of the place, just to see what the man volunteered on the subject. However, under closer inspection, that is not really how it comes across at all, resulting instead in that jarring first impression you mention. I'll definitely take another look at that scene before the next update (and one or two others, while I'm about it!)--many thanks for pointing it out. -
Very glad to see you've decided to keep going with this project- as regards your desire for the player to feel as if they would want to retry the game so as to experience different paths, I've already played through chapter one with each background at least a few times just to see what various things I can see. I think you've succeeded in this already, although I'm not sure if I'd be a good model for the 'typical player'.
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Hm, well for raising the coglioni stat I can picture playing five fingered fillet with Dino and the boys if you're with them, participating in a prize fight if you're with Chuck, or trying some new type of potentially dangerous brew Mangano's come up with if you're with him. I'll get back to you when I think up some stuff for raising the others stats with the characters.
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With War Vet he could have moment of shell shock, as personal even and nightmare. College Grad would have sided project of starting school, Businessman could be start is own company. Poltical bagman because alderman of Hell KitchenN Union orgizner a rise to be Union Boss or rep.
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@cheeetar Well, that's certainly a weight off my mind about the possibility of any lingering minor bugs in Chapter One--if there had been any, you would've found them! Hehe. I'm not sure it would be practical to continue doing that as the story grows, but if you do ever spot anything a little 'odd' (doesn't even have to be an actual bug) please don't hesitate to mention it.
@13ventrm & @Rogar Thanks guys, thought-provoking stuff.
We've a lot of ground to cover to flesh out the game in future chapters, so if anyone has any rough ideas for particular scenarios or situations--ones you would find especially interesting--now would be a good time to mention it. While the skeletons of the main storylines have been plotted all the way to the end, through the next nine chapters, adding more variety and occasional new sub plots is a very high priority.
@Luxtizer & @A_Money Thanks guys, appreciated. :) -
Political bagman could have to deal with an election maybe play two parties against each other or even set up their own party.
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@Vendetta In my opinion best indie game yet, possibly best on the site. I love the style and structure and the character sheet is by far the best on the site. I adore it, more please!
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Hm, interesting scenarios to fill out the chapters eh? Well I don't find it too much of a stretch to say that Dino probably didn't like the protagonist's power grab (if the player chooses to do so), so I think a neat scene would be Dino attempting a coup with a couple of other gullible mooks when your gang starts getting big, and the player choosing how to handle it. Plus it'd be a chance for the protagonist to act more suave, which is how I enjoy imagining my main protagonist.
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I think that if you're going to add an election (which 1. I think is a great idea 2. would allow for a really interesting take on the politicaian background), you make that a major part in one of the future chapters. An election could determine who rules the city, whether it's a strict law enforcer or a mob-connected friend, you know what I mean? I think a prominent election could be very well-integrated into the game.
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An election chapter would be lots of fun. I'm a political junkie anyway and even if the character doesn't have a political future, it would be fun to use your influence on an election.
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With my create a party idea I don't mean have the player run it but more like they get someone else to be the public face while you manipulate them from the shadows
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Thanks guys, some excellent suggestions there. It especially sounds like taking parting in the local elections would be a popular scenario--which would be good for historical reasons if no other, with rigged elections being very much a prominent feature of the prohibition era. It was always intended to be a minor part of the game (specifically for the Political Bagman to dabble in) but I'm now definitely convinced it should be bigger than that. Thanks. :)
The other suggestions are likewise good ones, great for adding interesting variety--keep them coming! (Says he, frantically scribbling notes in case the forum should be hit by lightning, or whatever).
@OrpheusRKT I'm delighted that you think so, although I do believe it's very much a matter of personal taste and won't be everyone's cup of tea . . . (or shot of alky, perhaps).
I also can't take all the credit for the Modus Operandi page, as that stems entirely from ChoiceScript itself actually being flexible and detailed enough to allow more of "a game" behind "the story". The stats page is the one place where this particular aspect of the underlying system can be allowed to shine through--granted, with a little extra thought and planning on the part of the designer, perhaps. That said, if Vendetta encourages even just one other person to think a little more about the game design behind their own story, and how that will be represented on their own stats page, then that can only be a good thing. -
@Vendetta I really like the business system too, its cl just owning something, I can't wait till we see some expansion on that! :)
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@OrpheusRKT Hehe. You won't have to wait too long for that, at least--building up your businesses and/or rackets (and then protecting/keeping them) is intended to be a major feature throughout the game, beginning fairly early in Chapter Two.
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@Bikkje Excellent suggestion, and very apt--especially as the Black Hand background has a fairly easy ride in the early stages (just by chance having the right mix of strong stats for many of the early choices) so something to cramp his style would help to balance things out a little. ;)
@13ventrm A fair warning! I'm hoping to avoid that particular problem with a 3-stage plan overall. The first step is to to complete the full demo (Chapters One & Two) including all the scripting for the ongoing "Weekly" stuff so it's easier to add more options to that in future as & when ideas occur. The second step will be to complete the main storylines all the way to the end, including being able to resolve the Gina Vendetta at different points along the way. The third & final step will be to flesh out Chapters 3-10 with all the extra ideas and sub plots, especially more background-related scenes and paying particular attention to the quieter weeks so that the regular week endings / income generation don't often happen too close together.
This way hopefully the game will at least be "complete" (i.e. with a beginning, a middle and an end) before I run out of steam--even if it means the last few chapters aren't as varied as the first few, due to loss of impetus (or whatever). I also feel that this way--completing the main storylines first--will put me in the right frame of mind to then complete the game properly, and fully, rather than always be looking down a looooong tunnel towards the end!
Well, the theory's good, anyway. :D -
@Bikkje The first brush with other Black Hand in the area happens early in Chapter Two, but I do very much like the possibilities of the "annoyed victim" scenario so that will definitely make an appearance at some point--and not necessarily restricted to the Black Hand character alone. ;)
@13ventrm When the full demo is done (with the completion of Chapter Two) I'll officially submit it to CoG to see if they feel it's both worth pursuing and something they would be happy to one day publish. That should be enough for them to make a fair assessment (as opposed to just submitting a vague idea for a game). Assuming no problems there, I honestly cannot foresee any other likely impediment--life for me is pretty settled, static and uneventful.
@Rogar The overall plan is to have different relationship possibilities occur several times over the first few chapters, so even if you ignore an early one (or simply miss it entirely, for whatever reason--e.g. as @tveldore mentions), the chances are that you will encounter another, and sooner rather than later. This applies to both straight and gay characters, with the only real difference being that the former will tend to be more glaringly obvious and easier to encounter, as gay men of these times (especially gangsters) tended towards being more circumspect. -
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but @Vendetta, do you have any idea when you'll be submitting the next part of the story? I'm dying for an update, my friend.
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It may be possible towards the end of the week but more likely sometime over the next weekend. I really want to have four full "weeks" available for some vital feedback on that whole aspect of the game, as it's intended to be a regular feature throughout the rest of the game so it's important to get it right from an early stage.
Problem is, it's proven to be by far the most complicated scripting I've attempted so far, so I've spent much more time hunting down & squashing elusive bugs than I'd planned for. On the positive side, it's all coming together nicely now and I'm very happy with recent progress. :) -
There is actually a "pitch" process for wannabe designers, whereby one submits a general outline to CoG in advance. However, I knew that my preferred idea (this one!) would not tick all the boxes (lack of gender option, for instance)--and may even tick some negative ones due to the subject matter and character type (a bad guy in a basically nasty world)--so I thought it best to complete a fair chunk first and thereby let them properly weigh the pros and cons.
Besides, I also wanted to be certain in my own mind--not being a programmer type at all--that I could actually pull this off . . . I'm happy to say there's no longer any doubt on that particular score. -
To be honest, I think they'd be absolutely foolish not to pick this one up. As others have already said, this is easily one of the most impressive 'demos' on the site, and it seems to have the potential to just run and run.
I'm honestly quite surprised that gender selection is one of the 'requirements' for submission to COG, although it's nice to have, it often seems to have little or no impact on some of the COG I have played, at least not in sense I would have expected.
I say take your time and continue to hone it, already what's been achieved is excellent and a fantastic show case for what choicescript can do given the time, patience and skill. On a personal level, I'd rather not have the gender choice, the trade off being a really tailored experience instead of a rather bland, generic one. I might be biased because my own project doesn't currently cater for gender selection (mine's also a bit risky given the default role is as a female), but there are good, justifiable reasons for that - as I think there are with Vendetta. I would certainly consider implementing gender selection later on, but only after refining the 'default' experience and making it as good as it can be. -
Nightmare Maze, one of the hosted games, has no gender choice, and has a reference to a wife hardwired in. Did it just get grandfathered in?
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I'm not so sure myself that CoG are actually opposed to games with no gender choice, if there actually seems to be a good reason for that decision (as opposed to sheer laziness on the part of the designer). I suspect it's also probably as much a business decision as anything--on the very solid grounds that the broader the appeal, the wider the potential market. There's nothing wrong with a simple, commonsense approach to marketing your brand, which is what I believe this actually boils down to.
In Vendetta's case, however, there is no escaping the fact that the target audience is probably 95%+ male and predominantly those with at least a passing interest in the prohibition era, gangsters, or organized crime in general. Some will just enjoy playing a bad guy for a change, free from real-life inhibitions and morals--i.e. pure escapism-- and hopefully some will also just enjoy "the story" on its own merits, with little consideration given to the actual subject matter.
All that said, the only thing I feel absolutely certain about is that for many of the main, actual target audience, adding a female character option would bring the credibility of the work into question. Many would, I feel, find themselves asking: "How realistic a portrayal of the era can it actually be if it allows you to play Alice Capone?"
Right or wrong, that alone would be severely mocked on the "target audience" sites where I one day intend to focus my efforts in promoting and advertising this game. I'm simply not prepared to shoot myself in the foot after all this effort, so that's not a compromise I'm willing to make. -
The question then is: "How realistic is a game ?"
Since it's a game and YOU are the writer, you decide the universe of the game. You decide upon the setting. So, it is only your decision whether to make it realistic or not.
Like you said and you are probably right in this case: Your target audience is 95% male, but if you allow for a female character, you'd get that extra 5%, since you would get a broader appeal to your game. It doesn't detract from the game, since people can choose to play whichever character they want.
Especially, since another point is that it's relatively simple to do- i.e. create himher, heshe variables and just call those whenever your character speaks or is spoken too - there is little reason not to do it.
While I'm not saying you should do it, as I see no real problem in making a game with just a male or female character, I'm saying that your argument for not doing it is quite weak in my opinion.
Would people NOT play Skyrim, because they have the choice of being a woman ? Would people NOT play Fallout, because they have the choice of being a woman ?
Most likely not.
Would people MAYBE play Fallout/Skyrim, because they have the choice of being a woman ?
Most likely yes.
So to finish this long rant. The only REAL problem I see is the extra work needed to add variables and put it inside the text. Now, for me that's the real question that should be asked. And then the answer is all dependent on the writer of the story, which in this case is you.
My 2 cents. -
It's a fair summary of the opposing argument, granted, and if that were my only reason then I would have to agree with you: on it's own, it's not a particularly strong one. I mentioned that particular one here only as an extension of the discussion on CoG's possibly-commercial reasons for encouraging gender choice, this being my own "commercial" reason for choosing not to have the option.
My other, far more varied reasons have been stated repeatedly in the previous Vendetta thread--and I'm certainly not going down that road again!
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