Seriously WTF!

Gonna bring my special brand of ‘vigilante noob-rage’ to this one.
*cough cough*

@Zed: no rage. Please.

@Havenstone

I suppose if you want to view writing as a zero sum game then that makes sense, but I have to disagree though I see your point. The consumer also has limited time and money, just like the writer has limited time to write. The writer can put out a rushed product if they want for whatever reasons, and the consumer will go find something else to do with their time. Whether 2.00 dollars is cheap or not (I argue not because I make close to minimum wage and thats about a fourth in what i make in an hour of work lol) doesn’t matter. What matters is that the game is worth the consumers time. “Good enough” really isn’t a business model that’s sustainable. Also, if the product is obviously rushed or lacking, then there will be negative reviews, people will tell their friends it’s not that great, etc. “Good enough” doesnt impassion people to follow the company’s products. If the current professional writers arent going to put in the effort necessary, then why not hire talented amateurs?

It may be unfair, but a consumer tends to only feel satisfied when the product exceeds what they paid for it. Being equal or less worth the price they paid causes disappointment. Although, it’s difficult to judge something like interactive fiction by that since the experience is subjective.

I could be completely misinterpreting you, but that’s the general feel I recieved from your post.

I’m speaking as a consumer now. This is not intended to be inflammatory in any sense of the word. However, I’m going to start not buying the main offerings until I see the response to them. It’s not worth it to me personally, and I’m sure a few other consumers feel the same. Because I don’t want to play a product that’s “good enough.” I want some effort put into the games. You can argue that effort is being put in, but it’s not showing in the latest offering.

Although, honestly, Eerie Estate Agent and Star Captain were fine and well-crafted. It’s just that’s not ALL I want.

@andymwhy It’s not a bad idea in principle, and I’ve certainly had (and dismissed) a few ideas of my own – dismissed on the grounds that I didn’t think I could flesh out the story enough to make it something worth paying for (not without blowing it up into something it wasn’t actually intended to be, anyway!). Your suggestion would give these ‘novella’ ideas a purpose.

That said, authors willing to spare time to write free stories for publication is a completely different matter to CoG themselves being able to spare the time to publish them, even just on the website. Moreover, I can’t help thinking that perhaps in their view we already have free stories on the site, which they call demos. While incomplete (unless you enjoy it enough to buy the rest) they do at least serve that purpose . . . except, perhaps, for those wanting not just a free lunch, but an entire four-course dinner and a cabaret show thrown in for free.

It’s a good idea, but a hard sell. However, if you do sell it, count me in. :slight_smile:

@Havenstone,
Sorry, didn’t see your comment. I had tried to Edit it in my first comment, but couldn’t.
Definitely used less swears than the normal rage.
@bocoom,
You’re complaining about new games not being F2P, but yet, you’ve never considered the effort these writers have to put in to create the stories, code them, and meet the demands of the users, which is a lot. I’m grateful that even though I won’t be able to pay for Vendetta or Unnatural (Or, extremely grateful in the case of ZE, which I can play for free) immediately when they come out, I’ll still be able to play the beta-test versions. YOU, on the other hand, care nothing about the hard work writers put into their stories. You’re complaining about new non-F2P games, completely ignoring the hard work that the authors put into it. What, do you think that the games get done in a day? Seriously, learn to have some goddamn respect for the writers. Capiche?
-Zed

@Zed thank you for repeating to me what other people already said! honestly i could not have known if it was not for you. im glad we have such SMART and AMAZING people like you!

@andymwhy I will commit to it and work on it once ZE1 is done. I really have some good ideas for side stories dealing with characters from ZE.

@andymwhy - You know, you may just be onto something there.
It really annoys people when they get into a demo, find it rather enjoyable and suddenly get a “SORRY!” You have to cough up to finish this.

I think, in fairness, I’ve refused to then buy such games, purely through spite.
HOWEVER, if you know from the get-go there’s a free version of one game, and paid version of another (both by the same author), you may be more inclined to pay for the second if you fully enjoyed the first.

Something I’d also really, really like to see is ‘donate versions’.

Where you release the entire game for free but include a second version with some additional options and/or choices - nothing major - but a little incentive to pay for the game, without forcing those who can’t/don’t want to, to do so.

@JimD I don’t know what’s more epic, the fact you referred to ZE as ‘ZE1’ or the fact that you’re willing to do free side material… :smiley:

@jasonstevanhill my apologies…he just relly peeved me off .-.

I probably don’t have anything new to add except to agree with the general consensus.

Making a game is very time consuming and involves a lot of work and not everyone has the luxury to put things out for free. No one is trying to rip you off. Even if there is some fun to be had, it’s still a job and you don’t want to invest too much for too little gain.

I can’t really speak as a paying consumer since I don’t have an i anything or Android. Still, not everyone has money to throw things at. For some people $3 is not enough to be considered money, but for others (like myself), it is still money and they’ll feel the pinch if it isn’t satisfactory. I won’t be able to play anything using the demo model but seeing as I would be able to play a chunk without having my money go to CoG/the author, it’s all fair game.

For myself, I would choose to have Bujin use the old model of free on the site and charged on the Android and Apple store. My reasons are firstly, like @andymwhy, I want to give something back to the community and agree that having free games on the site would generate interest. Secondly, it’s so that people who can’t afford having those expensive gadgets would still be able to play. Which leads to point three, that I don’t expect to be making much of a financial profit. Whether I charge it fully or not, I won’t be able to make back the time I spent. But if I can deliver, I can establish a name which would be helpful in the long run. And I can currently afford to do this too.

And if my plans take off, then I would like to continue contributing to CoG if I can afford it.

EDIT: @CJW Donate versions is a good term. That’s how I’m treating Bujin.

@Andymwhy I do have short stories in mind already. In fact, for the Border House game jam, I was pondering doing a short prequel game for Bujin revolving around a very important character. I would definitely like to tell Tomoe’s past some day. After all, she is named after one of my favourite historical figures.

I don’t mind paying for a story game because its development requires so much more efforts than it seems. However, I would hope that my money is spent on innovations and quality control for the company. Hopefully, the story released later will be lengthier and more developed.

@RVallant

I don’t think any of the professional writers will be offended by me saying they’re at the indie/small press end of the market. I suspect none of them are in a position to start dictating terms to Harper-Collins quite yet. Still though, with a handful of exceptions, breaking into the major publishers is unlikely to make writers rich either. If someone is writing primarily to make money, they’d be best advised to look at either PR or advertising.

The fairest parallel to professional interactive fiction writers is RPG writers. If you accept that analogy, then CoG are offering very impressive contracts in comparison to many companies.

For the royalties contract, 25% is extremely good. For hardcover books, you’d generally be looking at 15%, max. Add to that the fact that copyright is only being given by license, not transfer (importantly, that means derivative rights remain with the author) and we’re in the realms of the outstanding.

The work for hire contract is similarly competitive. It averages out to 5c a word. That’s absolutely top-end for this kind of work. To draw a comparison with tabletop games again, if you’re an established writer, working on a core line book for one of the bigger companies, you’d probably be looking at 3c a word.

With both of those contracts, you need to take into account the “added value” being offered by CoG. They’ve developed a programming language. They provide a professional proofreader, which isn’t actually that cheap if you’re paying market rates (Far too many RPG companies don’t do this. It shows). They sort out cover art. They handle promotion. They do the apps for you. All of those things take time and work and sometimes money.

Actually, hosted games are also getting a pretty good deal as well. It’s still a 25% royalties rate and copyright is still given by license. In fact, the only difference between that and the professional royalties contract is the lack of an advance. While you don’t get all the services provided to professional writers, you still get the programming language and the apps. And any promotion done for the official games is going to have at least some knock-on effect.

All this is based on the public contract summary. There’s some stuff I’m ignoring because of not knowing the details (whether there’s a no compete clause, whether royalties are gross or net, etc.)

What this is all leading up to, is to point out that one of the main reasons CoG needs to charge for games is specifically so they can pay their writers well. It isn’t there so Jason can drive limousines into swimming pools and do Scrooge McDuck style dives into large piles of cash.

That isn’t to say people shouldn’t criticise games or that they should buy them solely on that basis. I do think a rating system would be useful (although that’s harder then it sounds. I care less about how many people enjoy a game and more about how many people with similar tastes to me enjoy it). But, personally, one reason I’m happy to give CoG my money is specifically because they’re an ethical company that treats its authors well.

To finish this potentially tl;dr post with an old industry joke, that may go some way to explaining why this stuff is all important.

What’s the difference between a large pizza and a game designer?

A large pizza can feed a family of four.

3 Likes

Some user-created games are longer and better… And free… I mean Zombie Exodus is most likely better then some of the paying COG games (To me at least). I think you should just have ads on the sides of the site. Then its payed… I mean think about it. I can use the kindle library to check out choose your own adventure games for free… You can keep having ever game having to be paid and people only being able to play “demos” for free,but you will lose some people… You need to at least make SOME of your new games free, that is if you want to keep people on here. Because I notice some of your newer games are being shorter and less…“fun”. You cant rely on just that they are authors. That doesnt mean the games are going to be awesome. This is obviously not rude. This is just my opinion. And this is a perfectly civil opinion.
~Talon

Good suggestion, @Farside. Here’s the new thread.

Seconded, but perhaps a new thread can be created for some of the better points made in the thread? I do like the discussions about COG’s business model and future.

@CJW,
[3]

@Havenstone,
I didn’t actually see the squabbles need to stop one, due to simply skimming the first page and then not reading much else.

@Zed, for someone who claims to hold Mods in high esteem, you felt awfully free to ignore multiple direct requests from one.

Even if you missed my “no rage please” response directly to you, you would have read my “the squabbles need to stop” one. Despite this, you decided to pile in with insulting comments aimed directly at @bocoom.

You’re as close to being banned right now as @bocoom is – and that’s saying something. Last warning, buddy.

Edit: I’ve deleted Zed’s last post and Bocoom’s (commendably restrained) response, in the hopes that we can keep the thread open and sustain a valuable discussion.

Understood

Requesting thread closure.